Homosexuality & the Church - Part 2
I suppose I should have anticipated the stir I'd cause by posting Alex's letter on his experiences with and questions about homosexuality, but I must say it has been a very interesting, engaging and somewhat intense dialogue between people from all spectrums. I am very grateful that, despite the vast differences in belief represented in the commentors, we have been able to dialogue without some of the all too common hate that comes with this topic.
Throughout the discussion, I have realized that there are many dynamics at play behind the conversation that complicate some interactions. Here are some of the questions being discussed implicitly as I see them (Again, it must be noted that I do NOT represent Emergent or the emerging church in any opinions expressed here. Also, do not assume or infer any beliefs that are not explicitly stated as my own):
Is Homosexuality Sin?
What Does the Bible Say About Homosexuality?
If Homosexuality Is Sin, Is It Worse Than Others?
Where Do We Go From Here?
What Does the Bible Say About Homosexuality?
If Homosexuality Is Sin, Is It Worse Than Others?
Where Do We Go From Here?
Let me try to touch on each briefly:
-Is Homosexuality Sin? This is the foundational issue that keeps cropping up. It is an important and difficult issue to discuss. If this issue isn't addressed in some way, it always creeps into other peripheral discussions. Too often true dialogue is undermined by failing to recognize the differing foundational presuppositions we all hold. For example, within the comment section, two very sincere people who had both thought & prayed through the issues, studying Scripture, both came to exactly opposite conclusions. How could this be? In part, I am sure, because they are functioning under different presuppositions about Scripture, and thus, God.
-What Does The Bible Say About Homosexuality? While many would suggest that this is a clear cut issue, I don't think it is always the case. For example, Sodom & Gomorrah are still used as a proof of God's stance against homosexuality. However, this story is about unbridled hedonism finding expression in orgy. If this story had been about men calling for women, would it have been any better? No. God would have judged this equally.
Additionally, it is very hard to draw from Old Testament Law, even on sins considered abominations (i.e. anybody where clothing of the opposite sex). The New Testament Scriptures are the clearest, though they too can be challenging given the frequency of contextual references. However, they remain the Scriptures that keep me from abandoning the traditional Christian position (though admittedly I still find myself uncertain at times).
-If Homosexuality Is Sin, Is It Worse Than Others? While most people who have commented seem to think that homosexuality is a sin, there is still a great deal of variance on whether it is a worse sin than others. Mark Poole, an openly gay Christian man, commented well on this issue. While he & I disagree on what Scripture says about the issue, he gives us all something to think about:
Additionally, it is very hard to draw from Old Testament Law, even on sins considered abominations (i.e. anybody where clothing of the opposite sex). The New Testament Scriptures are the clearest, though they too can be challenging given the frequency of contextual references. However, they remain the Scriptures that keep me from abandoning the traditional Christian position (though admittedly I still find myself uncertain at times).
-If Homosexuality Is Sin, Is It Worse Than Others? While most people who have commented seem to think that homosexuality is a sin, there is still a great deal of variance on whether it is a worse sin than others. Mark Poole, an openly gay Christian man, commented well on this issue. While he & I disagree on what Scripture says about the issue, he gives us all something to think about:
"There is a tendency within modern Christianity (as with society at large) to focus on one or two hot-button issues and to make these a litmus test for orthodoxy. This has happened today with regard to issues of abortion, homosexuality and evolution. Many Christians spend a good proportion of their time and energy worrying about such matters (to the point of persecuting or demonizing those who disagree with them on such points) whilst conveniently ignoring weightier matters about which the Bible has a great deal to say -- such as doing justice, loving mercifully and walking humbly with God.
"For every Biblical reference to sexual sin of one form or another there are ten condemning pride, arrogance, unseemly wealth and oppressive governance. If we are to be Biblical in our thinking about morality we should read the Bible in its entirety for what it has to say about the whole range of moral issues -- and not just focus on a few selective texts that conform to our own comfortable sureties -- and each one ask ourselves how we ourselves measure up.
"This is hard for any of us to do, because our sinful natures find it much easier to point our what appears to be wrong with the other person. To phrase it a little differently -- we can be so busy applying Romans 1 to the sins of others that we never make it to Romans 2. The insidious nature of the sin of self-righteousness is that it leads us to believe we are right with God as a result of our orthodoxy -- and not because of God's grace.
"So much of what passes for "popular" Christianity today is expressed through what it is "against". Perhaps (although I am not sure) it is a mark of character to be opposed to those things that God detests. If so, then I would encourage people to search the Bible for phrases like "the Lord hates" (especially Proverbs 6) or "woe to you" (especially Matthew 23 and Luke 6, 10 and 11)." (For the full comment, see comments in Part 1)
-Where Do We Go From Here? This is perhaps the most challenging question of all, as it is difficult to answer until there can be some sense of the above stated issues. If we believe that homosexuality is not a sin, then the way ahead is fairly clear (IMHO). However, isn't the case for most Christians, including myself. If it is sin, and one of the worse among them, then the question is how can we manifest the life and love of Jesus to this community without alienating them with judgment, ignorance and hatred? If we cannot come to a clear sense of these issues, should we accept this as a difference of theological position, as one might over the issue of predestination or ordination of women (which I STRONGLY support)? So many questions come up, that I believe that there needs to be serious dialogue between people of various positions. I hope this will begin to happen here and on other blogs, but it must to happen in real, face to face relational connections."For every Biblical reference to sexual sin of one form or another there are ten condemning pride, arrogance, unseemly wealth and oppressive governance. If we are to be Biblical in our thinking about morality we should read the Bible in its entirety for what it has to say about the whole range of moral issues -- and not just focus on a few selective texts that conform to our own comfortable sureties -- and each one ask ourselves how we ourselves measure up.
"This is hard for any of us to do, because our sinful natures find it much easier to point our what appears to be wrong with the other person. To phrase it a little differently -- we can be so busy applying Romans 1 to the sins of others that we never make it to Romans 2. The insidious nature of the sin of self-righteousness is that it leads us to believe we are right with God as a result of our orthodoxy -- and not because of God's grace.
"So much of what passes for "popular" Christianity today is expressed through what it is "against". Perhaps (although I am not sure) it is a mark of character to be opposed to those things that God detests. If so, then I would encourage people to search the Bible for phrases like "the Lord hates" (especially Proverbs 6) or "woe to you" (especially Matthew 23 and Luke 6, 10 and 11)." (For the full comment, see comments in Part 1)
To close, for all those who engage in the comment section, while I encourage you to freely discuss the issue with respect, I would suggest that trying to convince each other of opposing positions is largely fruitless. Rather, put your energy in understanding the position of the other. Both sides need to truly identify with the position of the other, to try to understand the heart- the person behind the "issue".
emerging church homosexuality
I don''t believe it is worse than any other sin when acted upon.
My two cents. (Comment this)
Paul talks about Christians that should be ready for meat, but are still capable of taking nothing more than milk. And this is, no doubt, an admonition. And yet, if we can''t seem to keep down the milk, moving on to meat would be ridiculous and dangerous. I think we see just such a thing in the fact that what we are groping at is the question: what is sin?
If we are constantly asking if this act or that predisposition or this other thought is or is not sin, perhaps it should suggest to us that we are at a loss to understand the nature of our relationship with God and the body of Christ, the nature of our own created humanity, the nature of nature, the nature of our nature.
Sin is no abstraction, it is no merely intellectual proposition. Nor is it something which exists merely on a distinctly separate spiritual plane, or in an individualistic vacuum.
Before the Incarnation, perhaps it was enough to say that "this is the law." But humanity has always questioned the nature of the law, itself, and now that Christ has fulfilled the law our calling is certainly higher. But what was the purpose for the law in the first place? Was it merely a list of God''s likes and dislikes which we could follow that was, no matter how difficult it was to do so, at least simple in the sense of being clear-cut? Or was it, in fact, a starting point, for engaging our relationship with God? A starting point at which to begin pursuing Him, questioning Him, and wrestling with the deeper matters which the law implies?
Personally, I think we should be questioning God. But there are two ways of this: one which questions out of pride and a desire to contain him, bind him in contradiction or logic; the other questions out of a desire to know more of Him, and to know more about ourselves by knowing more about the nature of our created being.
We walk a razor edge. In my own life there have been times when I have been so conflicted about what is right or wrong, what was God''s will, what was my own state of being that I could make no forward progress, but rather sunk only deeper and deeper into despair and alienation. In such a state it, I think, is even right that we can say, "It is unclear to me -- I do not understand, and while others are clear, or seem to be, as to what is or is not, I cannot merely submit to their understanding because I also do not have it in me to trust them so completely. No doubt it is my own shortcomings that darken understanding, and which make difficult what is easy. No doubt it is likely to be my own shortcomings which keep me from being able to submit to the understandings of those more mature than myself. But submission without real faith is the submission of fear and not of hope."
Having said this, it is then my conviction, my hope that while I may yet be living wrongly and in a way displeasing to God, that still God will love me, have mercy on me, and help me to pass out of the darkness into the light. We may realize at some point that the only thing holding us back is the plunge, itself, that we are paralyzed by pride or attachment to our desires or mere comfort -- and as soon as this is clear (and perhaps only as it is becoming clear) then we must make a leap to go beyond the place we''ve been.
If the Rich Young Ruler, having been directed to give all his wealth to the poor, followed to the letter what Jesus told him, and yet did it only as one takes some herbal remedy one doesn''t really believe it would have probably done him little good. Only when he believes the Jesus is Christ would it make any sense for him to obey what he cannot understand.
If I haven''t totally lost my point by now, I''ll try to sum up -- it is something of a tragedy that we must continually readdress the nature of sin itself. It is a failure. And yet, if we have failed, it does no good to act as if we have not failed. It does no good to pretend. And what''s more, our attention should most definitely not be to "The List" of rights and wrongs but rather to God, Himself. Yes, we must do our best not to sin, but we must try not to sin BECAUSE we desire more awareness of God, a closer relationship with him, a greater likeness to him, and an attempt to live up to the calling he has given us. If we attempt not to sin merely for the sake of being moral we have lost sight of why morality is important and reduced it to yet one more thing upon which to build a caste differentiation between people.
We go too far, however, if we throw out morality altogether, if we ignore what we are told of right and wrong, of sin and of grace. There are many warnings about those who encourage and applaud that which is sinful.
One thing is certain: if living the Christian life seems easy, we aren''t living anything like the Christian life. (Comment this)
one thing i do think. if we do allow ourselves to get caught up in argument and pettiness on this or any issue then we are allowing the enemy to use us for his own misaligning of the kingdom. we must not stoop to a level Christ has not exemplified.
let us all remaing true to our beliefs but also true to the teachings of Christ and to the knowledge that truth comes our Savior. (Comment this)
Yes, Romans does address the issue. Romans 1:26,27 talk about men and women giving up what is natural to have sexual relations with the same sex. Additionally, I Cor. 6:9 & Timothy 1:10 also are sited as verses condemning homosexuality.
As I mentioned in the post, these are the verses that have kept me from abandoning the traditional Christian view of homosexuality. However, let me play the devil''s advocate.
Roman 1:26,27- If the men & women referred to here gave up what was natural for the same sex, then we could assume that they were heterosexual, thus going against their nature. One could argue that this very could be reversed to condemn homosexuals who give up their natural attractions for heterosexual union. (Again, I am just offering an idea, not my belief).
I Cor. 6:9 & Timothy 1:10- Some would argue that the word used for homosexual in this context is made up of two Greek words: arrhen/arsen (730) & koite (2845), making it arsenokoites (733). 730 means "man", "men" or "male", while 2845 can mean "bed", "in bed" or sometimes by implication "cohabitation" or "conceive". Some argue that this doesn''t clearly indicate homosexuality, but rather temple prostitution between men, or even abusive homosexual treatment, such as rape.
Again, I am not saying this is my view, but these are some interpretation you might hear to counter New Testament verses. However, what is harder to argue is the seemingly unbroken tradition and understanding throughout Judeo-Christian history to the contrary. Food for thought.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
Very well thought out. I agree with you in much of it, though I wonder if it isn''t too abstract itself. For someone in the midst of this issue, I am sure your answer would be very helpful. Perhaps I misunderstand you, so feel free to clarify.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
> unbroken tradition and understanding throughout
> Judeo-Christian history to the contrary.
It''s always interesting when the further in time we get from era of the writers, the better we feel we understand them.
Tradition may have allowed some kruft to build up, but completely turning it on it''s head is rather audacious.
While we''re on the subject of tradition... some have made statements making it seem that there were periods of time in which the Church as a whole supported slavery, anti-semitism, or whatever other nasty enterprise. This isn''t the case, though. It''s only natural that in the early days of the Church, Christianity''s relationship with Judaims should be discussed. And there were many strong statements made against Judaism, as well as Hellenic and Roman paganism, etc. But the Church as an institution, and the Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church, the saints were not in the habit of encouraging hatred. Polemics abound, for sure. But polemics and hate-mongering are not necessarily the same thing. Humans are a weak bunch, and no doubt there were dubious statements even from some of the best respected people, but as a rule they weren''t encouraging bondage and murder. I''ve seen nothing like the late ravings of Luther against the Jews in the Fathers. Of course, by then he may have been as mad as a hatter. (Comment this)
Heh. Hardly. I was writing by the seat of my kilt. :P
> I agree with you in much of it, though I wonder
> if it isn''t too abstract itself.
Hehe... like the irony, do you?
I admit that it''s very hard for me not to think in abstractions. I think in the end, though, what I''m saying only ammounts to this: let''s stop thinking of sin as an item on a list of proscriptions, and thinking instead in terms of what brings us, our families, and our communities into a more fertile encounter with God. Right now it seems we focus more on the list than on the God from whom the list is supposed to have come. (Comment this)
I want to approach this question with respect to those who hold a pro-homosexual position but, at the same time I must be bold and confident in what I believe the Word of God says concerning this most important sin.
Please understand that I have NO animosity toward anyone practicing this sin, I only hope to shed some light on the effects and consequences of participating in this lifestyle. That said, May God bless each of you.
Homosexuality is clearly described as not just a sin but, as an Abomination to God.
(Leviticus 18:22, 20:13 and Romans 1:24-27)
abomination n.
1. Abhorrence; disgust.
2. A cause of abhorrence or disgust.
If we believe ALL scripture to be the inspired Word of God, then we have no choice but to acknowledge that homosexuality is indeed a great sin.
As I have stated in an earlier post, in my opinion, there are major sins of which homosexuality is one. All sin is equally disobedience to God but abortion, murder and homosexuality are the top 3, in my mind, as far as causing the greatest harm.
Sin that we commit against ourselves (and against our standing with God) harms only us, and sometimes a few around us but, the in 3 sins mentioned, the results are much greater to others.
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Abortion: This is an act of murdering the innocent and also deeply affect everyone who is aware of this sin.
(there are more than 50 verses to describe pregnancy in the Bible and each time the word “conceive” is used, including the birth of Jesus. There is no mention of life starting at any time AFTER conception). Psalm 127:3 and Matthew 19:18
conceive - conceived, conceiving, conceives v. tr.
1. To become pregnant with (offspring).
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Murder:
Aside from the act of the sin, if we commit murder, we affect those in the family of the victim as well as members of our own family.
(the Bible states in many verses that “thou shalt no kill” period! In the case of accidentally killing someone, provisions are made, but outright murder is a great sin that adversely affects many)
--------------------------------------------------------
Homosexuality:
Aside from the act of the sin and the shame it quite often causes for family and relatives, it has a much farther reaching effect on society. It is obvious to anyone who is paying attention to our societies worldwide, that in this age of easy access to information and the increasing prevalence of homosexuality, children are being taught to accept it as normal. They are being taught not only by television, radio, special interest groups, political leaders, celebrities, literature, music, movies, schools and many other sources, but now, even by some Churches and professing Christians.
I have 2 sons of adolescent age and this is a very influential world we live in, with an amazing amount of pressure on them to conform to the ways of the world. My wife and I try very hard to explain why many, many things that they are bombarded with daily, are not acceptable in God’s eyes. At this time they are not old enough to discuss this particular issue but, when that time comes they will be taught from the Word of God that it is wrong.
I believe the biggest problem that I see with the popularity of homosexuality is that it being promulgated as being a sinless lifestyle to our children, when in fact, it is a great sin due to it’s abomination to God and the massive “stumbling effect” it has on people who fall into it because of the casual attitudes society has towards it.
I know there are many people who believe there is nothing wrong with being “gay” but, unfortunately for them, and consequently unfortunate for those of us who are trying to raise our children in a godly manner, there is way too much hard fact evidence in the Word of God that disputes their belief.
The answer to the question, “Is homosexuality sin, and is it worse than other sins” is:
If we believe ALL scripture to be the inspired Word of God, then we have no choice but to acknowledge that homosexuality is indeed a great sin.
For those are presently practicing and promoting this most important sin, I offer my prayers and encouragement that there is a better and more joyful way of life. In addition, there is a God who wants you to overcome this situation and whether it takes 1 prayer or 1 million prayers, He hears and desires for you faithfully follow His Word.
In Loving Kindness,
John
p.s. Ephrem touched on a most important point. The “Plunge”. It takes great courage to initially change what you may know or may feel comfortable in but, God cannot help you without action on your part (free will). He cannot bathe you with the power to overcome if you will not “plunge” into the water.
(Comment this)
Thank you for your input. I appreciate you presenting your beliefs with kindness. As I mentioned in the post, people are free to post their positions on this issue, as long as it doesn''t become a debate. It is important to debate at times, but I do not want this post to be such a place.
That being said, I invite everyone with differing views to add their voice here.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
> If we believe ALL scripture to be the inspired Word of God,
> then we have no choice but to acknowledge that homosexuality
> is indeed a great sin.
Many Christians don''t believe this in the same way as many other Christians. Some Christians don''t believe it at all. As I said, I believe scripture is inspired, but that interpretation is necessary, and if it were truly clear we wouldn''t have Christian sects numbering in the 4 figures (or more). The difference here is that different communities have different fundamental beliefs concerning epistemology. Some believe that the Church is necessary for interpretation, and that interpretation is, as such, communal (though certainly not democratic). Some believe that each person has to interpret and apply it as they find relevant in their lives. Some believe that God spoke, humans wrote what God spoke, and the meaning is as clear as clear and consequently that any differences from their understanding of the meaning is due to some kind of spiritual delusion. Some approach literally, some contextually as literature, some totally metaphorically, etc. I think it''s clear-cut. So do you. But knowing that to others it is not so I know it will not do to simply say "we have no choice". Before there could be a "no choice" -- though we always have choice, such is free will -- we''d all have to be on the same page in our epistemology and hermeneutics.
> As I have stated in an earlier post, in my opinion, there
> are major sins of which homosexuality is one. All sin is
> equally disobedience to God but abortion, murder and
> homosexuality are the top 3, in my mind, as far as causing
> the greatest harm.
In my mind murder and abortion are no different things. But I can think of things that certainly seem more depraved and blasphemous than homosexuality. Child molestation, human trafficking, bestiality, canibalism, certain forms of occultism. Who''s more depraved: a man stealing from widows and orphans, or a homosexual that feeds and clothes the widows and orphans?
> I believe the biggest problem that I see with the popularity
> of homosexuality is that it being promulgated as being a
> sinless lifestyle to our children, when in fact, it is a
> great sin due to it’s abomination to God and the massive
> “stumbling effect” it has on people who fall into it
> because of the casual attitudes society has towards it.
I hear ya... but homosexuality is just one aspect of the gratuitious sexuality we are being force-fed on a daily basis. And it''s not just sexuality, either. It''s hedonism and moral relativism on the grand scale. It''s just that the orgasm is the ultimate icon of our cultural orientation. And an orgasm isn''t a bad thing. It''s a good thing. But the Pursuit of the Orgasm (Trademark Pending) has been so thoroughly decontextualized, objectified. A really nice side effect of something greater than the merely physical aspect of love has been turned into the object. We have done this time after time with thing after thing. Education, work, religion, politics, even charity.
But sex does take a spot light -- it has the ability to offend (or arouse) us like little else can. Sex has always been a big deal -- whether we''re celebrating the lack of it or the excess of it, whether we''re condemning it or reveling in it. It''s something humanity has been just about as obsessive about in one way or another as religion or money for the entirety of our history. Why? God, Greed, and Lust, baby... the human points of turning. (Comment this)
http://theoldbill.typepad.com/thebackroom/2005/10/things_james_do.html
I had the good fortune to work in a church that was about half glbt folk and half straight. To share faith with gay christians who have experienced such pain and rejection not only from the church but often from the gay community for being christian, to pray with them, to hear their stories - it was a remarkable honour, a great learning. I was repeatedly humbled by the strength and passion of their faith. I guess to be gay and an openly practicing christian means that your faith must be strong, clear and intentional. It would be rough for those whose faith was not terribly reslient, even profound.
good to have this exploration, thanks.
theoldbill
http://theoldbill.typepad.com (Comment this)
I appreciate and understand your position as moderator to control the direction of this blog and I will respect that.
I sometimes find that it is a very thin line between voicing opinions and debating points, as they can too easily overflow into one another. But I find it is worth the occasional crossover to make important points and, in my zeal for pleasing my Lord, to share what I know helps us understand how to please Him better. I will always find the most loving road I can take in my witnessing and discussion efforts.
Thanks again for your efforts!
John
(Comment this)
This is where we would have to look, isn''t it? After all, he tossed aside so many old testament laws as not being relevant, so its hard to look there and say that those writers had it correct. As for Paul''s letters, Paul wasn''t God. He was a man whose letters are most commonly the source of conflict between Christians, and between them and the outside. I think Paul did more damage to the church after his days of persecuting the Christians than he did before on this count.
Paul is the only old testament writer that speaks out against homosexuality (in my understanding anyway). Who is it that says that he was inspired in all of his writings? Where is the dogma that Paul was infallible, or unable to be prejudiced as any human being can be? The Catholic Church said this was so by putting these letters into the scripture, but why do none of the emergents and protestants think about the fact that they abandoned the car while still clinging to the driver''s manual?
If you look to Jesus'' words, you don''t find homosexual''s condemned. There is a lot you don''t find, beyond a charge, and related lessons, to understand and properly worship God. If you apply understanding of God to the question outside of prejudicial writings from elsewhere than the source then can you say that homosexuality is damaging to anyone?
You speak of shame of self, shame of family, related guilts like this as having an impact. The act doesn''t do that. Society does that. My friend''s family isn''t shamed that she is gay because of God whispering in their ear. They are ashamed because of their friends, family and church whispering behind their backs.
Again I ask, how does one follow a God of love who condemns a woman for loving? (Comment this)
I hear what you are saying about the shame that your gay friend experiences but, I can''t agree that the shame is only because of the outcasting she may feel. Forgive me for maybe sounding blunt but,if there was no initial shame in her for what she was doing, no one could ever create any sense of shame in her.
Concerning Christ addressing homosexuality, it is not mentioned that he preached on that particular issue in the New Testament but, it is my understanding that He did explicitly say that "He came not to change the Law but to fullfill it" (Matthew 5:17). The issue of homosexuality was addressed in that way as He upheld the Laws of the Old testament.
The only times I have found that He ever made any statement that may have sounded contrary to the Law, was when He was chastising people for situations where the Law was being abused by the very leaders who where so suppose to enforce and teach it to the population.
If there is better understanding of this, I invite you to share it with me.
God Bless you my Brother,
John (Comment this)
And of course all of Paul''s writings aren''t inspired. Just the ones in Scripture :)
The issue isn''t condemning someone for loving. Any right act can be wrong in the improper context. I''m married. For me to allow myself to fall in love with another woman would be wrong, much less to act on it. Context determines much. In my case, it determines who I can and can''t love and in what way.
All of us face the same issue in this fallen world. Our proclivities have been damaged. We are fallen and run after many things we shouldn''t. An orientation isn''t a sin... but acting on it may be. We have choices, and some of us have harder choices than others. But God''s Word is the plumb line, not our own desires... (Comment this)
thanks for the posts on this subject. It is something I have really been thinking about a lot lately, as my 17 year old brother has just recently told my family that he is gay.
Have you read the section in Missin The Point, by Tony Campolo, on Homosexuality? If you haven''t, recommend it. I would say i have probably thought about homosexuality a lot, as my best friend in high school was gay, but i never quite new what i thought about whether or not a person ''chooses'' to be gay. I probably would have thought that they did. But after talking with my brother and hearing that he''s known he was gay since he was a child definetely changes my thoughts on the entire subject. I don''t know what i think at all anymore, all i know is that i love my brother, my gay/lesbian friends, and that as a christian I am not to judge anyone. (Comment this)
In terms of choice, I think it''s helpful to avoid the two extremes that come up in this discussion of the "cause" of homosexuality. One side says "I was born this way." The other side says "You choose it."
I think both are largely wrong. There''s a third option... A combination of factors, but largely having to do with early childhood experiences and deficits.
It never fails to amze me that 80% of the homosexuals I talk to share amazingly similar stories in terms of their family of origin. (Comment this)
Thanks for the link. I will likely be doing one more post on this topic before setting it aside (at least for a while). While I have been greatly challenged in this process, I am also deeply grieved over this issue- in a very general sense. Your prayers are requested.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
Of course, from my perspective homosexuality itself seems ''unnatural'' and ''abnormal'' because i''m not gay. But since when did God ever choose ''normal'' as the pattern of behaviour God would bless? I''ve had to move beyond my personal feelings of queasiness, because God''s moral code doesn''t begin with my personal response.
But when i look at the actions and stories in the Bible, that show how the word of God is to be lived in action, I have to read the teachings of God within their context... and the people who faithfully risked all to bring about God''s purpose, and to bring those teachings to life - include prostitutes, women of dubious character, people of dubious sexual background, single mothers, unmarried fathers - all of whom were condemned by the community around them.
God surprises me over and over again. Who God trusts and uses in the Bible (and throughout history) surprises me over and over. I cannot hope to know God''s mind, all I can do is hope to reflect God''s love. (Comment this)
I will be emailing you today. Thanks for the great recommendation.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
I will look into that book. Thanks! As for the similarity of stories in the homosexuality community, I have given that some thought too. While there is some correlation, I also realized how similar their stories are to a large number of straight people. I am not sure the history theory is enough. However, I do see some patterns worth exploring.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
" hear what you are saying about the shame that your gay friend experiences but, I can''''t agree that the shame is only because of the outcasting she may feel. Forgive me for maybe sounding blunt but,if there was no initial shame in her for what she was doing, no one could ever create any sense of shame in her."
You misread my post. It was her family, not her. She isn''t ashamed. The only pain from that area is the lack of communication of her family. She long ago made the determination that a God who would create her to be damned by her own natural reactions wasn''t one she could hope to understand or please. She doesn''t think that is who God is though.
Bob:
"Well, the idea that simply because Jesus doesn''''t explicitly condemn homosexuality it must be okay is pretty weak."
I wasn''t necessarily saying that, but then again, to claim that it must be wrong because he didn''t say it was okay is also pretty weak. I don''t have my bible with me right now and I am heading off to work, but perhaps one of you could help me in regards to Jesus stating that the only law was to love God above all others and love your neighbor as yourself. I am sure you will all jump on how I misremember or misinterpret this, but that is where my mind wanders at the moment. (Comment this)
I did not mean to cause you to feel you were being "jumped on". That was not my intent and I apologize for that end result.
God Bless!
John (Comment this)
Yes, Jesus did say that all the Law and prophets were summed up in "Love God" and "Love your neighbor", but that certainly wasn''t the extent of what He had to say by way of commands. This is the one that said if you even look at someone with lust you are committing adultery. In many ways, He raised the bar, not lowered/did away with it.
My point is that Jesus seemed to speak to points of the Law He was modifying... I think we can infer from the fact that He reaffirms the creation order of man for woman and woman for man, the fact that he does not lay aside OT prohibitions concerning sexuality, and that the OT prohibitions concerning same sex sexual relationships are specifically reiterated in the New Testament, that homosexual activity is out of bounds for Christ followers.
Ella- God may use women like Rahab, but that doesn''t mean He condones prostitution, right? Romans 1 seems to be pretty specific in how it speaks of homosexual activity... Of course God uses all of us, in spite of our sin and in spite of the fact that we continue to sin. But that doesn''t mean He ever accepts our sin, even as He accepts us.
God will love and accept someone who struggles with lust, gluttony, selfishness, etc. That doesn''t mean He condones those acts or is willing that the person committing them should continue.
God will love and accept those who engage in same sex sexuality. That doesn''t mean He condones those acts or is willing that the person committing them should continue. (Comment this)
When I read Romans 1, I see it talking against women who sleep with women with lust, not love... and men who sleep with men with lust, not love.
I agree with that, absolutely.
Any sexual relationship that abuses and defiles is damaging and sinful.
The Bible is pretty silent, however, about women and men who are in love with their same-gendered partners, who bring life and love to the world, who aren''t sexually confused, and who could never be described as godless and loveless wretches. I can''t see where the Bible condemns healthy homosexual relationships.
The Christian tradition has been mentioned quite a few times throughout this conversation, as though there is only one Christian tradition. There''s a whole other tradition in the church, through the ages - a much less dominant tradition - which has not condemned homosexuality. And it''s got a history that is as long and as deep as the much better known tradition! (Comment this)
This is a statement which needs much more than a brief gloss. "Tradition" can take numerous meanings, as can "the church". Care to give some foundation for this claim? (Comment this)
I have research some of the "traditions" (I assume) you are referencing, but have found the few incidences few and often questionable, rarely enough to equate a full tradition, but more often anomolies.
However, like Ephrem, I am open to hear more information to fill this out. A very interesting addition to the conversation.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
John Boswell, ''Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality'', Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1980
There are plenty of others, that''s the only one i have the name of here.
Boswell argues that the view that homosexuality was a sin only became dominant in the church in the 12th century, as part of a general movement at the time within Christianity to oppress minorities - restricting the place of women in society, expelling Jews and Muslims from "Christian" countries, etc. He names bishops, leaders, mystics etc., from the first 1000 years of the church who were in homosexual relationships - and cites the writings and paintings that indicate such.
There is rarely ''one tradition'' in Christian thought throughout the ages, on any topic. It''s just that the church has always been very, very good at keeping some voices quiet. (Comment this)
Whatever the case, when approaching controversial academic works, one must be cautiously critical. Received history is written by the conquerors, no doubt, but revisionist history is written with no less potential agenda.
An introduction and bibliography of academic criticism of Boswell on the Gay and Lesbian Humanist website: http://www.galha.org/ptt/lib/hic/bibliography.html (Comment this)
i really am bowing out of the conversation now. i''m going on leave for a few weeks, and won''t be near a computer.... I was going to send you an email, Jamie, but i can''t find your address anywhere on the site... (Comment this)
A friend of mine from Grand Rapids pointed me to your current blog on homosexuality knowing I have interest from both family experience and Christian response within my tradition. I have appreciated reading Alex''s email, your comments and the conversation that has followed.
I am struck that this conversation quickly moved from a "face" to a discussion of "facts" and "formulations".
David Myers recent book ''What God Has Joined Together?''(Harper) helps us keep a face on our discussion. I appreciate the sense of humanity and balance that David contributes to the discussion from the perspective of a Christian social psychologist. He challenges some of the long held paradigms of homosexuality and reminds us that all truth is God''s truth. David has been the author and editor of the most read college psychology textbook on the planet for the past 20 years or so. He is highly respected in professional, academic and Christian circles and is well known for his pro-family work on the National Marriage Project in the US. He is a committed Christian, husband, father of three and an Elder in the Reformed Church of America. He has a website with articles he has written on sexual orientation posted on:
http://www.davidmyers.org/Brix?pageID=16
In reading comments here, I am reminded that as a result of the Fall, we humans are addicted to the discerning of good from evil. Jesus recognized this when he noted our propensity to pick at the splinter in our neighbor''s eye rather than deal with the log in our own eye.
Since only 2% or 3% of the population has a same sex orientation, this is an issue that most of us feel comfortable taking a "stand" on because we don''t see how we could possibly be implicated ourselves. I find this sense of safety odd given the high rate of divorce, spousal abuse, child abuse and heterosexual infidelity taking place in marriages labeled "Christian".
Jesus confronted this same sense of safety and pride in the men that were ready to stone the woman caught in the act of adultery. But Jesus exploded their safety nets by exposing their own cracked-ness--essentially causing them to walk away without judgement.
In fulfilling the OT Law, Jesus raises the bar and redefines sin so that none of us can dare claim we are not adulterers and murderers. Paul confessed this himself as being the "chief of sinners". And so we stand the same as Paul, not just at some point in the past, but today, right here and right now.
Jesus calls us to love God and love our neighbors in the context of community for the good of the world and at the same time expands the boundaries that define our neighbors.
So, for me, to live out the gospel as it relates to my neighbor who happens to have same sex attractions, is more a function of "owning" my own deep cracks as I stand beside him or her than making a point of their cracks.
When we acknowledge the deep cracks in our own humanity, we can let God be our all in all (complete us) and be released to love those whom God loves and that the world finds unlovely. We can minister grace when the best the world can offer is tolerance.
In the truth of the Gospel we can feel known and loved by God and therein be able to represent this light and reconciliation to our neighbors around us, whoever they are.
So in the faces of the Alex''s (and Alexa''s) out there, I see people "for whom God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ not counting...sins against them. And He has given us the message of reconciliation...as though God were making His appeal through us"(2Cor 5:18-20).
If we can grasp the notion that God desires to use us, as cracked vessels, to make his appeal, it will profoundly change us, our mission and our message.
(Comment this)
Thanks so much for invaluable contribution here. You can always email me at jamiearpinricci AT gmail DOT com
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
It''s not fair I''ve wanted to scream. I hate this. I feel caught between two worlds. I''ve pleaded with God to deliver me from these desires. When I can''t stand the pressure any more, I give up - yea it''s that sin that impacts millions of "Christian" men - online pornography.
Then I feel so awful - I''ve failed God AGAIN. I wasn''t strong enough - or sometimes maybe couldn''t even bring myself to try to resist. I pray. I ask the Lord to forgive me - AGAIN. I hate myself. I''m the biggest hypocrite in the body of Christ.
Why doesn''t God just change me? Why doesn''t he make me "normal?"
Then I begin the cycle again. The anger that I can''t have what I feel like I absolutely have to have. The giving in to what I rationalize as a "lesser temptaion - sin - pornography" knowing that to God I just gave into the sin that I wouldn''t physically act out "If a man looks upon a woman to lust, he has committed adultry with her in his heart." I suspect that would also read, "If a man looks upon a man to lust..." - you get the point.
My problem is that I''ve have studied the scriptures. I believe the Holy Spirit guides us and I know that this is a sin. I could try to rationalize it, but in my heart, I know it''s wrong.
I don''t know why the struggle. I''ve pretty much given up hope of any "instant" deliverance, though I believe that does happen. There is something God will do in me through this struggle. So I content myself with knowing that if this is a struggle for my whole life, God will make it up to me in the life that is to come. It may not be crucifixion and it''s not martyrdom, but in a since, I see this struggle as my entering the fellowship of his suffering. I am convinced God loves me. I am trying to grow in my love for God.... I know that someday, his grace will allow me to be victorious in this struggle.
Is this struggle that we have to endure fair? God never said anything about life being fair. Was Jesus going to the cross fair? Are millions of persecuted Chinese Christians fair? Fairness has nothing to do with it. I scream to God about fairness but then he gently reminds me how blessed I have been and that many others suffer far greater than I have.
I believe firmly that "all things work together to good for those who love God and are called according to his purpose." I don''t understand what Good I will see in this. But I''m sure that Joseph didn''t see what Good would come out of his years in prison either.
When I have the doubts and the questions, all I can do is put my hand in his, realizing he loves me, and try to trust him. I''m not good at it yet. I''m struggling. So below are my answers to the questions posed here.
Is Homosexuality Sin? I believe Homosexuality is sin. I believe the passage in Romans leaves little doubt. Some may want to claim that somehow men with men is natural or women with women - I can''t buy it. Not to put to fine a point - one of the things you have to look at is how men and women are built physically - what the result of the union is. Men with men aren''t producing offspring and women with women aren''t producing offspring. There is no "be fruitful and multiply" in homosexual unions.
What Does the Bible Say About Homosexuality?
Again, I can find not one scripture which supports homosexuality and regardless of what some might claim, there are many that seem to oppose homosexuality as sin. I won''t list them all here. That''s been done quite a bit already.
If Homosexuality Is Sin, Is It Worse Than Others?
No I don''t believe it is. Scripture says if you sin in one point of the law you''re guilty of all the law. God is absolutely Holy so any violation is absolute.
Where Do We Go From Here?
God is also Love not just holy. We have to love one another. I believe that if all of us fall in love with Jesus -he''s going to start working on those areas in our lives that he wants to challenge and to change. If you have someone in your life who is gay or involved in any other sin - my recommendation is not to argue - it won''t do any good. I recommend prayer.
So guys, those of you who are adamant homosexuality is a sin - please don''t quote me scripture - I agree with you. Don''t think you can come up with another scripture to "help me." If the Holy Spirit doesn''t give it to you then please don''t bother. I probably know the scripture too. Instead, take a moment and pray for me. It''s going to take God to help me.
For those who want to tell me, that I''m wrong and homosexuality is a sin, sorry, you''re not going to change my mind. Instead, I would ask that you simply pray that God will do in my life what he wants done.
Alex, I''m praying for you too. Don''t give up. God is gracious and he understands.
Your brother in christ
JDL
(Comment this)
Thanks for your comments and prayers. I share much of the experiences you shared. Jamie has been kind enough to let me use this forum, so I am glad it has been place for people of all experiences to weigh in.
Like yourself, I do believe that homosexuality is wrong. Or at the very least, I am not willing to chance that with my own life or others. However, like Jamie, I hold these views tenuously. The deeper my relationship with God gets and the more I engage Scripture, I find my confidence waver. NOT because I think the Bible says contrary, but rather because so much of our certainty is ill founded.
For example, the argument that plumbing (aka anatomy) or procreation are proof that heterosexuality is the only model are very weak. Not to mention fairly insensitive to those who cannot or choose not to have children. Procreation is one, but not the only (nor pivotal) reason for sexual union. Stick to the stronger arguments.
On a lesser note, I am concerned with your reference to the Holy Spirit "giving you" Scriptures. I believe in the Holy Spirit and His active & dynamic work in our lives, but this can be an easy way to ignore Truth that doesn''t require some kind of revelation. It can also be used to proof text our own beliefs without doing the work and asking ourselves the hard questions.
Finally, JLD, the last thing I would ever want to do was to talk you into changing your lifestyle in this respect, but I would caution you not to shut the door to the perspectives of others (unless you feel you are not strong enough to engage the issue, which is fair enough). You were very clear on your opinion, then resolutely shut the door for dialogue. It may not have been your intention, but it certainly was my experience.
Again, thanks for your honesty and vulnerability. Thanks to Jamie for making this space available.
Alex (Comment this)
I also want to thank Jamie for hosting this conversation.
I want to make a few points of clarification. 1. My comment about the Holy Spirit only applies to anyone addressing me or my situation directly, not the general discussion. Frankly, I''m not living my life by someone else''s opinion or argument. I want to find out what God wants and do that. - That''s where my point about the Holy Spirit comes in. I do believe in the Holy Spirit''s power to redirect us and to bring revelation. But that does not mean I don''t study. In fact, I studied this topic and others through my life exhaustively. Scripture is always the plumb line by which I judge those "leadings of the Spirit."
Now as for my argument on what is natural. I believe the "plumbing" issue is a valid argument. God''s design and purpose is the true definition of natural. I personally think stretching it out to loving couples that can''t conceive is a bit of a stretch of the argument. That''s not unnatural, that usually is a health issue that arises in a "fallen" world. I don''t think the two situations are in the least equivalent. If you care to share how the two are related, then I''m happy to pay attention.
I don''t mind debate or argument on this or any other issue. I gave my perspective and my opinions based on the questions that started this post. But far too often, we the church, give our opinions without talking to the Lord. I''ve prayed lots of prayers over this. All I''m asking is that if someone is "addressing me or my story" that they pray about it first.
This in no means suggests that I want to "close the door on discussion." We have lots of verses and interpretations flying around - lots of quotes by theologins, but what is God saying? That''s my question. Are we really taking our opinions and laying them at his feet to let him help us see it through his eyes. He is truth - his word is truth. But people can twist it in interpretation.
God is not the author of confustion. So let''s ask this question, are we sure we''re seeing through his eyes - that we have the mind of Christ.
This is not the first issue that has divided the church. The issue of gentile believers and circumcision was a major issue in the early church. The leaders met and argued. I suspect both sides referred to scriptures. But in the end they sent out a letter with instructions. At some point, God''s view came out. I''m not saying that my view is God''s view. I am saying we need to seek God''s will on this which means prayer and being led by the Spirit as best we know how.
I don''t know all of the answers. What I have shared are the answers I believe he has given me at this time - for my life. But there has to be a way to find God''s will on this issue decisively.
Okay enough of my rambling. I don''t know if I made my view any clearer or not. I''m sure someone will let me know :-)
JDL (Comment this)
I don''t have much time right now but I had to say one quick thing. Praise God for you!
You have clearly pointed out the important distinction of being a Christian who sins. Remorse and Repentance!
We all have our "demons" and I for one am recovering alcoholic for 13 years now. There are still times that I briefly think about it but I have been saved from the urges for quite some time, though there are those who do fight the urge to drink for a lifetime.
I fought to not drink for 25 years and countless times gave in and did the same thing as you so eloquently stated:
"Then I feel so awful - I''''ve failed God AGAIN. I wasn''''t strong enough - or sometimes maybe couldn''''t even bring myself to try to resist. I pray. I ask the Lord to forgive me - AGAIN. I hate myself. I''''m the biggest hypocrite in the body of Christ.
Why doesn''''t God just change me? Why doesn''''t he make me "normal?""
Each sin has this horrible effect on us "IF" we are remorseful, repent and try again to please God.
I just wanted to encourage you to continue the fight! Jesus said that we are either for Him or against Him... no middle ground. I am encouraged myself by your testimony of attempting to follow Christ!
God bless you Brother,
John (Comment this)
Is Homosexuality Sin?
Homosexuality is an affectional, emotional and sexual orientation, or a pre-disposition. Like heterosexuality, it is a precondition out of which certain desires, including not only the desire for sexual intimacy but more strongly, the desire for companionship, love and a shared life together, arise. If sexuality is a bow from which the arrow is shot, then sexual orientation determines the aim.
Prior to the nineteenth century, "homosexuality" and its opposite "heterosexuality" did not exist as concepts in western consciousness, thought or literature. The concept of a person being predominantly or entirely oriented toward loving and cohabiting with a member of the same sex did not exist in social or theological discourse. Social and historical circumstances and the state of human knowledge did not lead to a modern understanding of human sexuality until the late 19th and 20th centuries.
Sin, as described in the Bible, is generally construed as an act of rebellion or disobedience (against God). Sin is almost everywhere described in terms of specific actions. Is this sense sin is performative, not orientational. To point to a sin the Biblical authors generally pointed to actions (even if those actions were thoughts or desires), not to a condition or person.
What Does the Bible Say About Homosexuality?
The Bible is silent on "homsexuality" since the Biblical authors were not aware of "homosexual" orientation. As indicated above, the concepts of homo- and hetero-sexuality did not exist until modern discourse invented them. The Bible, written in Hebrew and Greek, speaks of certain acts as being sinful (using Hebrew and Greek terms). There remains considerable debate within peer-reviewed biblical scholarship as to what many of these terms meant to the authors and their readers, including whether or not they refer to specific sexual acts and to what extent the context of the condemnations were moral/ethical or cultic. They did not refer to "homosexuality" in the sense it is understood or discussed today.
How these Biblical terms were interpreted and translated has changed throughout the centuries, and such interpretations have been largely influenced by the beliefs of the translators. There has been a degree of circular reference (homosexuality is wrong, therefore the act described in this passage musst refer to homosexuality, therefore it is translated "homosexual", therefore the Bible condemnd "homosexuality"). Words now construed to mean people of homosexual orientation were once translsated as effeminate or un-manly, which says moree about the concerns of the translators and their milleiu than it does about the intent of the original authors. There has been some excellent scholarship on this subject by Mary Hunt (I believe) of the Pacific School of Religion (I''ll try to dig up the references if I can).
There are, of course, those that believe that certain English translations of the Hebrew and Greek texts are divinely inspired (or guided) -- the so-called "textus-receptus" or received text theories -- and those people would believe that the KJV or some other preferred translation is as authoritative as the original texts. But the majority of scholars understand that the exact meaning of many biblical terms can only be tentatively arrived at. To read such texts as referring to the "homosexual" orientation is to perform an anachronism (similar to those who see helicopters or atom bombs in the book of Revelation).
If Homosexuality Is Sin, Is It Worse Than Others?
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The Law condems all in equal measure. We cannot be saved through adherence to any part of the Law. Discussions of who has the greater sin are contrary to the Gospel.
The example and teaching of Jesus, and Paul (see Romans 2 and elsewhere), seem to make it very clear that the primary duty of the faithful is to bring forth fruit, not to be "fruit inspectors". I say this partly tongue in cheek, but the intent is serious. If I define salvation or the grace of God by what I find distasteful in others, I am missing the point altoghether about what it means to follow Christ. To borrow from what somebody else said earlier, it is not the list-makers who will inherit the kingdom of God but the Christ-followers and the justice-doers.
Where Do We Go From Here?
When discussing issues that go to the heart of who people are (identity and being), we cannot avoid the fact that religious and theological positions can and do have profound and reverberating impact on the lives of real people. This is not an abstract debate about whether hypothetical space aliens can be saved by Christ, but often times discussions about homsexuality sound just like that. Christians need to learn to speak with one another and the world in "I-Thou" terms, not in "this-that" terms.
I am reminded of the famous Marie Antoinette quote, "Let them eat cake", which (whether true or apocryphal) highlights the danger of engagin in discourse ona subject about which many people have no first hand experience and nothing personal at stake. What is an abstract theological, philsophical or ethical discussion to one person is alternately the source of incredible violence, discrimation, persecution, hatred and fear to another. We cannot have such a discussion about real people without acknowledging this stark reality.
I am a Chritian AND a homosexual -- while this does not give me some privileged point of view on what it means to be a Cristian, it DOES give me a privileged view on what it means to be homosexual and Christian in America today. I have something valuable to say to the church that cannot be brushed away with appeals to scriptural proof texts. Genuine dialogue will not seek to objectively label, define or pre-judge me without listening to my story. I am encouraged by the discussion on this blog and want to encourage everyone to maintain open lines of dialogue. We can all speak of our own experience and interpretations, but none can speak categorically about the divine salvation, worth or holiness of other persons with whom we might disagree. (Comment this)
So we have the continuation of the irony that sometimes confuses this argument more. You have people from three camps: People who are homosexual, people who aren''t but have some understanding of specific individuals who are, and those who are heterosexual and have no concept other than the idealistic concept of what the topic is. (JW taps me on the shoulder and points out that homosexuals would be divided into the same two groups as I just did with heterosexuals.) The point before she makes me lose it is this: What camp the individual belongs in doesn''t seem to point to what their position will be. It occurs to me that this tendency means that the time is ripe for actual soul searching and conversations/discussions on this matter. The lines are slightly blurred, each camp has both opinions floating around in it. Now all that is left is to figure out the truth so everyone can grab hold. (Comment this)
In many ways, I share your frustrations. While we take different stances on the details, we share a deep frustration with the treatment of the issue and people involved (or in general).
Alex is working on a closing post for the site. From the draft, he is summing the issue (for now) around many of the same frustrations. I really appreciate your voice here.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
This is what I would say to any man struggling with the sin of homosexuality, or woman for that matter:
I would ask him, "if you died and stood before God and God asked you, why should I let you into my heaven, what would you say?"
If he tells me, "I have trusted Christ as my Savior", I would say, "the bible says you are a new creation in Christ Jesus, old things are past away, behold all things are new" II Cor. 5:17.
I would also say, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". Phil. 4:13
I would ask him, "do you believe these passages?"
When he says yes, I would say, you must do what God told the woman taken in adultery in John 8: "Go and sin no more"
I would counsel him saying, "You must do the following:
1. Get rid of all the pornography in your life including: movies, magazines, internet sites and friends.
2. You must become involved with solid, righteous, Holy living Christians.
3. You must ask for fellow Christian prayer support.
4. You must continually bring every thought and action into the subjection of Jesus Christ, II Cor 11:1-3.
This is a spiritual battle, you cannot live it on your own power, Ephesians 6:10-18.
Until you mean business with God by forsaking your sin and seeking to live a holy life in the power of the Spirit, you will never have victory over your sin.
Alex I have heard many thoughts, opinions and encouragements in this discussion of Homosexuality; it''s power and the fact that it is sin, but I believe it will continue to be a discussion with no true and just answers for you or anyone else until you are able to take hold of and own the truths stated above.
I will gladly pray for you. You however, must "walk in Light and stop walking in the dark", I John 1:7-9.
Finally, people are captives to all sorts of sin: terrorists, adultery, alcoholism, abuse of children, abuse of a spouse... etc. Let me tell you, non of these are an excuse to not forsake your sin and seek to live a holy life by the power of the Holy Spirit!
Illustration: The Apostle Paul loved to inflict pain on people. But after his experience of Salvation, he become a lover of the people of God, God took away his captivity.
Let''s pray now:
"Father, I don''t know this young man. If he does not know you as his Savior, I pray that he will place his eternal trust in you. I pray that you would help him to be freed from his "love of sin", you have instructed us in I Peter 1 "to be holy because the Lord your God is Holy". Help him to understand that he can never be holy until he forsakes his sin (confesses to you that it is sin) and daily, moment by moment, trusts you to help him put this sin in his past. Help him to cast aside the "hindrances (sins) which hold him back from running the race that you have called him to run, Hebrews 12:1,2. Help this brother to become tied with godly men and women who will help him to become the servant of God that you desire in his life.
I pray these things in Jesus name, Amen".
(Comment this)
While I am open to all comments here, this post was clearly not an invitation to counsel people. I appreciate your intention (please understand I am not angry or offended), but it wasn''t the purpose of this post.
That being said, if you had read the posts throughout, you would know that Alex, while experiencing the reality of homosexual orientation, has never acted upon those feelings (beyond dabbling in pornography years ago), believes the traditional view (sorry ella) that homosexuality is sin, therefore will never act on it.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
thanks for the encouragment
JDL (Comment this)
Planting a Seed
Please HELP-Teach the children (Comment this)
This 'sin' then only applies to certain people who don't want to engage in it? Conveniently then the ones who don't desire to engage in homosexual activity, and are the least likely to actually engage in it (as it holds no appeal) but who do are now sinning?? But the ones who engage in that act willingly but do it consensually and out of love..... it somehow is no longer sinful?
Does that then mean that when the Spanish got to what is now Mexico City and stopped the Aztec human sacrifices that they were wrong? As many of the virgins were sacrificed to the sun god willingly, and were sacrificed by priests who also thought it was going to make the sun rise the next day....does that now somehow make those murders ok? Were the Spanish not obligated to 'correct this error'? I am not obligated to correct the improper logic of relativistic sin? I can argue any sin is relatively good.....but in the end that is just a way to try to justify the act...it doesn't suddenly become 'good and loving'
To make sin 'relative' makes any and all sin possibly palatable in certain circumstances. The argument is just an attempt to make a sin tolerable. But God hates all sin, but loves all sinners. Truly if you believe otherwise you are only deceiving yourself .... (Comment this)
I am not sure how to reply to your comment, as I am not sure who you are addressing. Are you replying to Mark's comment in the post or some commenter above? I don't believe I suggested the relativism you suggest.
That being said, your example of the Spanish & the Aztecs seems way off. Are you suggesting that while human sacrifice is wrong in a pagan religious ceremony, it is ok for an invading colonial force to slaughter a people as judgment? Are you suggesting that the Spanish were acting out of religious or moral conviction? Very bad example.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)