Homosexuality & the Church - Part 1
I recently received an email with some interesting thoughts from someone who reads this blog. In telling me his story, I was challenged by the personal, yet thoughtful nature they explored the issue of their own homosexual orientation. I have helped them edit the content, changing enough details to protect their identity. It is important to note that this is a record of reflection, questions and personal experiences. Do not assume beliefs or positions held by either myself or the author unless they are EXPLICITLY stated. With that said, read on:
I first realized that I was different in high school. Sure, I had a healthy attraction to girls, but I didn't quite understand the disgusted expressions on the faces of my male friends when they joked about anything remotely sexual between men (even nudity). Before long, I realize that I was somewhat more sexually attracted to guys than girls. The shock, fear and angst that came with this revelation floored me.
Growing up in an evangelical community didn't help in finding someone to talk to about it. While things have improved since I was a kid, telling Christians you're "gay" brands you with an all-defining stigma. It wouldn't matter that I had been one of the most dedicated Sunday School teachers for years, parents would always wonder about leaving their kids with me. Girlfriends would always wonder if I could ever really like them. Guy friends would fear that I really did love them.
Growing up in an evangelical community didn't help in finding someone to talk to about it. While things have improved since I was a kid, telling Christians you're "gay" brands you with an all-defining stigma. It wouldn't matter that I had been one of the most dedicated Sunday School teachers for years, parents would always wonder about leaving their kids with me. Girlfriends would always wonder if I could ever really like them. Guy friends would fear that I really did love them.
The fact is, other than a problem with pornography, I have never acted on the orientation. While this certainly reduces the stigma, it comes with problems of its own- such as people assuming it isn't really an issue with me or that it was just a phase. Even then, no matter what my other personality traits, interestings or even life callings, I am still seen and treated as the one who "struggles with homosexuality".
With all the talk in the church about homosexuality, I cannot help but notice how often the tone is abstract- theological, political and hypothetical. Even within the emerging church, certain leaders choose not to make their "positions" known, and while I understand the wisdom in this, it still leaves people like me hanging out there, wondering, confused. The larger evangelical church has done a poor job at giving helpful answers, so there is a sense of eager hope that I feel in engaging the emerging conversation.
Here are some of issues that I wrestle with:
With all the talk in the church about homosexuality, I cannot help but notice how often the tone is abstract- theological, political and hypothetical. Even within the emerging church, certain leaders choose not to make their "positions" known, and while I understand the wisdom in this, it still leaves people like me hanging out there, wondering, confused. The larger evangelical church has done a poor job at giving helpful answers, so there is a sense of eager hope that I feel in engaging the emerging conversation.
Here are some of issues that I wrestle with:
-Most Christians approach the issue of homosexuality as though it is unequivically clear in Scripture that it is wrong (and understandably so). However, I can't help but consider that early Christians were equally sure that slavery and the treatment of other races as unhuman was equally part of God's Biblical mandate. Will future Christians realize they were wrong about this issue too? Am I suffering in vein? I am not convinced it is the case, but the question doesn't leave me.
-More "progressive" evangelicals are placing more emphasis on orientation. For example, they understand that homosexual activity is sin, but the orientation is not a choice. While this is somewhat better than "Hate the sin, but not the sinner", it still fails to see how deeply rooted the orientation is in our personality. The attraction is as real and "natural" to us as heterosexual attraction to others. It isn't just about lust. It isn't just about sex. It is far more complex than that. The differentiation between orientation and action is helpful for basic understanding, but in reality - in our hearts & minds & bodies, we are one.
-Gay marraige has been the hot topic. While I believe that no law should require a Christian church (or any religion) to perform such unions, I am not sure I believe it is right to make them illegal. If the argument is based on God's design for marriage, sexuality, family and cultural responsibility- thus a Biblical, Christian worldview- does this not, then also mean that we should stand against the understanding of marraige that undermines this? Should not Islamic or Hindu marraiges, where the role, position and (often) even the value of women is in direct contradiction to Judeo-Christians mores? Should not common-law marraiges receive the same press and emotion from the Christian community? I say all this, not to be political, but to demonstrate that the fierce commitment against these "evils" is not being honestly addressed.
-More "progressive" evangelicals are placing more emphasis on orientation. For example, they understand that homosexual activity is sin, but the orientation is not a choice. While this is somewhat better than "Hate the sin, but not the sinner", it still fails to see how deeply rooted the orientation is in our personality. The attraction is as real and "natural" to us as heterosexual attraction to others. It isn't just about lust. It isn't just about sex. It is far more complex than that. The differentiation between orientation and action is helpful for basic understanding, but in reality - in our hearts & minds & bodies, we are one.
-Gay marraige has been the hot topic. While I believe that no law should require a Christian church (or any religion) to perform such unions, I am not sure I believe it is right to make them illegal. If the argument is based on God's design for marriage, sexuality, family and cultural responsibility- thus a Biblical, Christian worldview- does this not, then also mean that we should stand against the understanding of marraige that undermines this? Should not Islamic or Hindu marraiges, where the role, position and (often) even the value of women is in direct contradiction to Judeo-Christians mores? Should not common-law marraiges receive the same press and emotion from the Christian community? I say all this, not to be political, but to demonstrate that the fierce commitment against these "evils" is not being honestly addressed.
So much more could be said. Let me close with this: Homosexuality is an easy target because, for the vast majority of its critics, it is a "sin" few will ever be guilty of (and fewer still would admit it). It provides us with an "enemy" of unequivical evil, thus a distraction for the true sins and failures of our lives, both as individuals and as the Body of Christ. Until we cease this violation of God's truth and His children, we stand in sin far greater than the one we condemn.
-Alex
emerging church
I fully agree that it is given far more power and emphasis than it is due. I also agree that there are far more restructive sins out there. I think "Alex" closing paragraph captures it well.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
It is not understood, and therefore it is feared. It is feared, and therefore no attempt is made at understanding, only a continued recoiling in horror. A self-feeding circle that never really adresses the issue, but ends up offering only what amounts to platitudes and slogans, and a "culture war."
Now, having said that, I, a heterosexual male, who has very close gay fiends, must nonethless honestly confess that I am not without great ambivalence on this topic. But, the kind of intelligent (and fairly dispassionate as well) way in which Alex writes, is exactly the spirit in which these things need to be honestly--and compassionately--addressed. And it is a shame, that the people who may need to hear such voices the most, are the ones least likely to ever take the time and effort to even listen for a minute, not to some abstract, objectified "homosexual", but to a real human being not all that different from themselves in almost every other way....
Until all of us, whoever we are, can do that, we err, and we will not approximate God''s intention for authentic community in the kingdom of God (the Gospel), nor will we truly be able to address much of all our "brokennesses" (sins).
My two cents.
Peace to all (Comment this)
i do not know anything about being gay. i know that i have found men attractive. i have not found them sexually arousing or attractive but i have been capable of saying, "that man is handsome". with that being said....is the sin truly about being attracted to a man or is it about being sexually immoral? and what makes it sexually immoral? is it an infallable truth found in the Bible or rather a doctrine/tradition made popular by a particular denomination?
i have no answers. i don''t even pretend to have any. i do have love though and i have the ability to choose no to judge. i don''t even want to judge. i only want to continue to pursue my relationship with Christ and encourage others to pursue theirs. "let he among us without sin....", right?
well, i am full of sin. i have no room to condemn anyone and will not do so. (Comment this)
Excellent thoughts. I appreciate your insight. Fear is certainly a strong factor contributing to ignorance and judgment.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
Thanks for your heart in this matter. From my experience and friendship with people who have this experience is that it is far more than just attraction, but the same fullness of attraction (sexually and more) that we all experience.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
Thanks for the thanks. Any specifics as to why?
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
I think it has all been summed up in the previous comments, but please keep posting challenging and provacative issues like this.
I for one am a learner and am enjoying every minute of these discussions.
ralph // (Comment this)
Thanks for the encouragement.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
Thanks for this compelling and very needed post. The issue of being Christian and gay must become a topic for the church at large. I am in dialogue with friends here in Grand Rapids, MI and we''re trying to understand Scripture and embracing grace relating to believers with a gay orientation and how the church can reach gays not avoid or worse condemningly reject them. (Comment this)
The issue of homosexualality sin is no different than any others in the aspect that its a temptation that is needed to be overcome. We all agree that pornography is a temptation that needs to be overcome? I find it similar with similar root causes. (Comment this)
Honestly, I do not believe that it is "natural" for a man to be attracted to a man or a woman to be attracted to a woman. I am in no means saying that you''re not being honest in the fact that you had no choice. I agree, you probably didn''t have a choice. What I''m saying is that certain things in our lives that happen tend to leave scars and cause our lives to be "outside of normal". I believe that the non-natural occurs when we''ve had experiences in our youth that have had an adverse affect on us in any way. Take my life for instance.
I do not believe that infidelity is "natural" among humans. When I was young, my mother had multiple adulterous relations while married to my father. When I was growing up, I looked at adultery in the worst way. Until I became the adulterer.
Let me explain now. I don''t know your past, and I don''t know your family''s past, but this is what I''m assuming: something in the past has triggered this. I believe that when young men become sexually attracted to their own gender, it can be due to multiple things:
1) sexual abuse/molestation
2) the lack of father figure in their lives (or perhaps, there was a father figure, but he was certainly not up to par with what a son would require while growing up)
3) some part of the family history that had either (1) or (2)
See, Jamie? I can be nice. E-mail me and let me know what you thought about this, k? (Comment this)
Thanks for the comment. I have just sent you an email.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
I appreciate your comments. As you say, there is an aspect of addiction that comes with any sexual sin. It is not worse, in this respect, than any other sin.
However, where pornography is just about self gratification, homosexuality goes deeper, inform even the romantic inclinations of those who experience it. The roots of homosexual orientation and pornographic addiction can overlap, but are VERY different. I would caution you not to make too many assumptions about it similarity. It is a unique dynamic.
Thanks again!
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
You are ALWAYS welcome to post here, regardless of your views. We may disagree, but I have not found you to be offensive. So, feel free!
Notice that Alex used the word "natural" in quotes, thus suggesting that he know it is not actually natural, but that in his experience, it feels as natural as the heterosexuality you and I experience. He was emphasizing that it wasn''t simply a matter of giving in to temptation, but a constant experience deeply rooted in his life.
You are right that there are causes that can be linked to this struggle, though not always obvious or consistant. You might be surprised to know that Alex was never abused, has wonderful parents and was raised in an very healthy, stable home & community. His causes are more complex and less traumatic, which might explain why he never went too far in it.
Thanks for the great insights!
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
And regarding the homosexual lifestyle not being a temptation: Just because one person says its not a temptation does not make it true. After all it wouldn''t be a sin if it wasn''t tempting to someone. (Comment this)
That helps clarify your position a lot better. Thanks for that. However, your comment: "Just because one person says its not a temptation does not make it true. After all it wouldn''t be a sin if it wasn''t tempting to someone." Where did this come from? Neither Alex or myself said it was not an issue of temptation. Care to clarify again?
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
I appreciate this man''s willingness and openness to share. While I believe homosexual intercourse is forbidden both in the Old and New Testament, I don''t believe this makes one less a Christian who is like this man. It would be something I believe, that one would have to keep bringing to the Lord. Some, believing this orientation to be sin have had dramatic breakthroughs they''ve testified to in which they''ve walked away from it. Others seem to struggle and are involved in a process to overcome it.
I have besetting sins. Anxiety, worry (same thing), regret, lack of trusting in God, not being able to overcome very well attacks from satan so that until the wave dissipates I am struggling (though I''m growing in dealing with that; yet I still don''t handle that well). And I''ve had to learn more or less the hard way in the past to not flirt with sin.
I''ll continue to listen. There are true brothers and sisters in Christ who disagree on this subject, as I think we see from the comments.
Thanks Jamie, and thanks to the brother who shared this,
Peace, Ted (Comment this)
I have invited Alex to respond in the comment section of the post, so keep your eyes open for him. He is a good guy, a Christian and willing to engage the ideas, no matter how frank or personal the discussion gets.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
Sorry if I''m confusing you. I working right now.
I like this comment from Ted:
"I don''''t believe this makes one less a Christian who is like this man."
I absolutely beleive all sin is equal. Earlier I may have sounded harsh because I was trying to point out the difference between all sin being equal to God and the fact that men do not see all sin as equal(even though we should). Typicaly its easy to forgive a little white lie, but harder to forgive a rapist. (for example)
When I posted:
"Just because one person says its not a temptation does not make it true. After all it wouldn''''t be a sin if it wasn''''t tempting to someone."
I thought somebody said that because the lifestyle feels natural that makes it not a temptation.
I probably misread someone, but like I said I''m at work.
Thanks for the grace.
Randy (Comment this)
No worries. I appreciate your input.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
cheers, paul. (Comment this)
Congrats on the new baby! If you need any info, let me know. I''d be happy to help in any way I can.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
jamie, thanks again for bringing us all together (although you didn''t offer us a pint of anything....hahahaha) to have this dialogue. blessings..... (Comment this)
I really enjoyed RENT. Should I be any more shocked or angered by a gay romance and that of a hetero couple living and having sex outside of marraige? Something to think about.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
We are conditioned to accept some sins more than others. This is why I am more appauled at seeing gay couples in movies than heterosexual ones (when it''s obvious they aren''t chaste!) Perhaps my kids when they are adults will not cringe at such scenes in movies (I think almost every romantic comedy has one stereotypical homosexual now).
The percentage of professing evangelical Christians who have addictions to some degree with pornography is at least as high as those who are not Christians, some put the number higher. Over all, our culture is showing the signs of being so overly sexualized that there is no turning back. Europe leads the way with the continually lowering of the age of consent. When a 50 year old man can have a sexual relationship with a 14 year old and it is not a crime, there is sure to be a reduced response to sins of higher depravity. In the US, we have an organization that is very well organized that is working to make acceptable the idea of man/boy sex.
I do have a point in all of this: The world is working to condition our society to accept all behaviors as okay. The Church is working to preserve goodness and Godliness by trying to make a pagan world behave like Christians. In the process, the Church can tend to place some sins as darker than others.
Now, we have something occuring that has never happened in the history of Christianity: some in the Church are being influenced regarding their stand on sin by the culture, rather than the culture being influenced on their stand on sin by the church.
Are either of these positions biblical? I have my questions regarding both.
(Comment this)
God bless,
kerri (Comment this)
I think we are conditioned to judge those sins furtherest from our experience, thus allowing a black & white position, a clear enemy with which to measure against our own mediocrity as Christians.
Tragically, the abusive approach to sexuality in our culture can significantly (though not exclusively) be attributed to a heritage of sexual repression that the Church has too often created, promoted and even legislated. Again, you site fringe organization that are promoting terrible stuff, but are they the real enemy or rather the result of a larger failure by the Church to be the transformative agent in the world?
I don''t think there is as much of an agenda by the world to condition society to accept these behaviours as there is a reaction to our failure. If the church was working to preserve goodness and Godliness, we would do well to stop attacking that which we contriute to and deal with the core causes where we can- racism, sexism, injustice, etc.
In the end, I see what you are saying, but I think it paints a picture putting too much emphasis on the worlds failure, as though the church is a victim of the world. Perhaps in the past this might be true, but in the Western world, we have no such excuse.
Thanks for your input.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
No, I wasn''t making references to fringe groups (except the man/boy sex lobbying). My point in showing the depravity in our society was to show that homosexuality is only one piece of a fragmented problem, and relatively speaking a smaller problem than others.
I think I may understand where you are coming from, however I disagree. It is not a matter of opinion, scripture clearly teaches that the god of this world is acting in opposition to everything that is of God. This opposition includes a continuation of blinding the eyes of the believers, making what is bad to be accepted as good, and reliance on wisdom of men over wisdom of God.
I have my undergrad in sociology. My post-grad also included some sociology. I don''t say this to validate my points of view or to say I''m smart (LOL)! I only say this to explain that I have been educated in many of these theories and ideas. For most of my adult life I accepted them as truth. But in the last two years my world-view has been turned upside down.
Also, Jamie, you are adding ideas to my comments and refuting them. I didn''t speak of the church being the victim of the world. The greater the sin around us, the more different we will look! I''m actually not in the camp of James Dobson or Dominion thinking.
Again, I''m forced to deal with the realities of blogging! In the spaces we are forced to leave in our writing, the assumptions are filled in and often wrong. It''s a shame that some of the most interesting people I meet are in the blog world and they all live in Canada or California and I can''t meet them for a great conversation over coffee.
Oh well!
Thanks for the exchange, Jamie. Your a blessing to many~
kerri
(Comment this)
Thanks for the clarification. I think we are, indeed, on the same page. I apologize for jumping to conclusions. While I do think that too often these day, the church plays the victim to the realities it has contributed in creating, I agree that there is a very real battle with a very real enemy.
Again, sorry for this misunderstanding.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
I know several lesbian couples who are very loving and devoted to each other. Through my work I see the results of domestic violence on a daily basis. My sister is in constant court battles with her ex-husband. Now I am not saying that all homosexual pairings work, and heterosexual ones don''t. I am happily married and know many others who are. My point is that this God of love that you speak of doesn''t jive with thinking less of two women in love and loyal to each other than a man and a woman who are married but barely speak to each other. (Comment this)
The point your making is really irrelevant. Gods love for all people Jew and Gentile is a fact , and using it as support for homosexaul lifestyle is not logicaly possible. With that said I can see where you were trying to go with your words but you just don''t have a point.
There is no doubt that we are to love all people no matter how they jive.
And I''m truely sorry to hear about your sister, but that is a consequence of the fall of man. Homosexuals and wifebeaters all need to be loved by people as God would love them. Do you disagree? Should we think more of homosexuals than wife beaters? Absolutely not, we are to flee from all sin! (Comment this)
I confess that I have long struggled with where I stand on this issue. I know what I have been taught and what the historic church has believed, but that doesn''t make it any easier.
However, it would be too easy for to dismiss this heritage for a more "inclusive" understanding. At this stage, I cannot. As much as I would like to, I cannot look past what I believe to be foundational to much of my faith.
That being said, I believe the Church has sinned deeply and gravely in their treatment of the issue and the people who deal with its realities.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
While I appreciate all input here, I do not think it is fair (or polite) to say that Wanderer''s point is irrelevant. He does indeed have a point, even if you (or I) don''t fully agree with him. I am happy for people to disagree here, so long as it is done with respect. I imagine you meant no disrespect, but I think perhaps you unintentionally crossed the line.
That being said, while we are on the same page in general terms, I am not sure I agree with you in the details. Yes, "sin is sin is sin", but to compare "wife beaters" with homosexuals shows, in my opinion, the lack of sensitivity that the church is too often guilty of. Again, just a note of caution.
Thanks for your input.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
This has been an interesting conversation thread. As a Christian who happens to be gay, I think the number one problem the church at large needs to face in any discussion of homosexuality is this: Stop the monologues ''about'' the ''issue'', and start engaging in serious and humble dialogue with real people.
For the majority of conservative and evangelical Christians, and perhaps even many liberal churchgoers, ''gays'' and gay marriage are subjects to be discussed, debated, dissected and analyzed. GLBT folk are the ''other'' over whom the debates rage concerning who to recognize, welcome, affirm, reconcile with, baptize, ordain or marry. For the most part the ''issues'' relate less to the people being ''discussed'' and more to the fears, concerns and agendas of those trying to control what until recently has largely been a one-sided discussion about sin and damnation.
Very few people try to let their theology and faith perspective be informed (let alone transformed) by experiences of and reltionships with real GLBT people. Christians with an axe to grind about homosexuality seem to be far more pornographically obsessed than the vast majority of ordinary people who are attracted to, desiring of or in love with someone of the same sex. The ''God Hates Fags'' antics of Westboro Baptist may seem to be an extreme example, but in reality it sits at one end of a continuum of objectification and depersonalization that has a long and sorry pedigree within the major branches of Christendom.
In a sense this is like earlier historical debates about race, slavery, Judaisn, the ''role'' of women, etc. These debates go all the way back to the prototypical argument between Peter and Paul as to whether the uncircumcised might have a place at God''s table. In spite of God''s emphatic ''Yes'', it is one of the real scandals of Christian history that we are still having such discussions two thousand years after the matter was settled.
In Jesus'' day it was the Pharisees who debated the sinfulness of various individuals and argued who should be ''allowed'' to come before God in worship. In reality, and as Jesus witnessed through his ministry, all have already been invited to God''s banquet table and do not require an invitation or pass from the religious leaders of the day. Many of us are already assured of our place at the table, episcopal or priestly withholding of approval notwithstanding. Perhaps it is the religious leaders who, like the Pharisees, have shut themselves out of the celebration without even knowing it; so busy are they loooking for the ''disordered'' speck in my eye that they are unable to notice the plank in their own!
Jesus always ministered to the individual human beings in front of him, ignoring the abstract religious and legal issues as defined by the Pharisees and their ilk. In his dealings with men and women who sought God he always seemed to ''err'' on the side of generosity and radical inclusion. Can those who claim to follow Christ dare to take a less generous position? Can a Christian follow Jesus in name only but not in deed?
Treating people as objects or issues for discussion is the result of a radical depersonalization of the Gospel. The central commandment upon which the whole Gospel hangs is this: "Love God, love one another." A faith based on this commandment rejects the stigmatization of the ''other'' in favor of the ''one another'' loving Jesus practiced. He exhorted those who followed Him to repent of their own sins and not to spend time examining the perceived sins of others. This is the way of the cross. Consequently, the road the church must take in this regard is to similarly stop the incessant babble about ''gays'' and look at the sinfulness of itsz own objectifying and dehumanizing ''gaze''.
The church has risen to challenge in the past vis-a-vis race and other injustices, so I am confident that the same redemptive process will take place (and IS taking place) in the church today. (Comment this)
Your remarks about how Jesus ministered did two things to me. 1. Make me feel convicted to not get caught in debates of the issues and work towards loving "gays" with the grace that God showed they deserve. 2. On the other hand this quote made me think...
"Jesus always ministered to the individual human beings in front of him, ignoring the abstract religious and legal issues as defined by the Pharisees and their ilk."
This made me think--Of course Jesus acted this way. He was God. He was able to ignore religions faults because he was there to set them straight. He loves all but at the same time doesn''t tolerate sin. Being that I''m not God and can''t forgive your sins how am I too hold to the truths God gave me with out offending you? Even if I want to love you as a sinner like myself...I cannot ignore the spiritual discipline outlined in scripture.
Through the blood shed of Christ, I want to say that I love you as a Christian brother. (Comment this)
Thanks for your thoughts. Very well said and interesting indeed. I agree with the depersonalization that has happened. This is why I wanted Alex to speak for himself.
That being said, the danger is to not discuss it at all. Jesus didn''t judge or condemn, but He did call for changed choices. Your challenge is well heard, but it should not end all discussion.
You are- person and ideas- very welcome at this site. Please continue to share your wisdom.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
I feel I need to be blunt at times when a false agurment is presented prove a point. But by no means did I intend hurt towards the person.
By saying the argument is irrelevant I''m saying the logic used is a false premise and cannot be used to defend a point. Wanderer, I did not direct the point at you personaly.
We have to have basic truths in order to discuss anything. I have let myself be open to criticism of not being as loving to gays as I should. And a supporter of gays should be open to the fact that they are talking to Christians who want to learn how to love Gods people better. (Comment this)
I agree that Wanderer should be open to critiques (which I have ALWAYS found him to be). However, your argument that his logic was based on a false premise is where the challenge comes.
Wanderers logic holds us VERY well on the premise of his beliefs and presuppositions. Your presuppositions and beliefs are different, thus your conclusions are different. Therefore, you would need to address the presuppositions to get to the heart of matter. That, however, is an entirely different topic.
You are MORE than free to disagree and challenge people here. I was simply asking that you be more intentional about how you state them. Thanks for understanding.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
Wanderer said "Through my work I see the results of domestic violence on a daily basis. ". This leads me to think that domestic violence may be something close to their heart. And while I understand that domestic violence seems to be a more deliberate/anger based sin that doesn''t mean hate should be directed in any direction more than the other(let alone hate to be directed at all).
The fact that lesbians can be in a committed relationship doesn''t lesson the sin.
If I was a supporter of gays I would easily be able to see that Christians should focus worry more about domestic violence than homosexuals. But I don''t view it that way so I must stand by Gods word claiming that all sin is equal.
I didn''t think we were really discussing whether or not homosexuality is a sin as much as we were discussing how to approach/discuss the issue.
This is an aspect of emergent I''m not happy with. I know as a whole Christians have done some wrongs things. Particularly with "hating fags". But what are we supposed to do with a sin? I''m learning to love other still. (Comment this)
Sadly, you have missed my point. I will own it as my own lack of clarity. I am not suggesting that homosexuality is not wrong. Neither was Alex in his original post. As far as I know, neither is the emerging church (so don''t attribute anything to emergent in this regards).
Neither am I saying that some sins are worse than others in their moral quality. Sin is sin, all of which is enough to seperate us from God & His intentions for us. It is arguable that, despite this, the temporal consequences are not the same. You wouldn''t execute a kid for pinch his sister, nor would you put a child molester in the corner for a time out- but that wasn''t my point either.
My point was that homosexuality is NOT treated as any other sin by Christians. It is treated as, by far, one of the worse sins in the Evangelical community, for reasons I have stated previously. Additionally, I think there are aspects of Evangelicalism that actual contribute to the problem (ie. continued sexism and even subtle mysogyny in our theology and culture).
Finally, my point in post Alex letter was to bring a real person, with real questions, real concerns, into the dialogue to remove it from the abstract moralizing that too frequently dominate this issue.
I hope this clarifies.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
anyway- the reason for my thanks is relatively easy (in comparison with the rest of this conversation). You tend to have a leveling opinion and voice, and I think that''s what the discussion of Christianity and homosexuality needs right now. A calm, rational voice. (Comment this)
Regardless of one''s personal beliefs about whether certain types of relationships between people are sinful or disordered, all Christians must surely agree that we are called to honor love wherever it is found, and to judge not others lest we be judged ourselves and found wanting.
There is a tendency within modern Christianity (as with society at large) to focus on one or two hot-button issues and to make these a litmus test for orthodoxy. This has happened today with regard to issues of abortion, homosexuality and evolution. Many Christians spend a good proportion of their time and energy worrying about such matters (to the point of persecuting or demonizing those who disagree with them on such points) whilst conveniently ignoring weightier matters about which the Bible has a great deal to say -- such as doing justice, loving mercifully and walking humbly with God.
For every Biblical reference to one form or another of sexual sin there are ten condemning pride, arrogance, unseemly wealth and oppressive governance. If we are to be Biblical in our thinking about morality we should read the Bible in its entirety for what it has to say about the whole range of moral issues -- and not just focus on a few selective texts that conform to our own comfortable sureties -- and each one ask ourselves how we ourselves measure up.
This is hard for any of us to do, because our sinful natures find it much easier to point our what appears to be wrong with the other person. To phrase it a little differently -- we can be so busy applying Romans 1 to the sins of others that we never make it to Romans 2. The insidious nature of the sin of self-righteousness is that it leads us to believe we are right with God as a result of our orthodoxy -- and not because of God''s grace.
So much of what passes for "popular" Christianity today is expressed through what it is "against". Perhaps (although I am not sure) it is a mark of character to be opposed to those things that God detests. If so, then I would encourage people to search the Bible for phrases like "the Lord hates" (especially Proverbs 6) or "woe to you" (especially Matthew 23 and Luke 6, 10 and 11).
Is it possible to discern that our own understandings of right and wrong are often not in agreement with the way things are presented in Scripture. Why do we become obsessed with the private sins of others (as we perceive them) when God, throughout Scripture, again and again calls the chosen people to turn away from their own sins and to live justly in the land God gave them? (Comment this)
Yes, things have picked up here. I am glad you found the post leveling. The comments have stirred some interesting dynamics, some typical, others quite good. We''ll see where it goes. Looks like it might become a series too.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
While we would disagree on what Scripture actually says about homosexuality (as mentioned in your first paragraph), the rest of your comment has beautifully capture the heart of what my original post intended. In fact, with your permission, I would like to post it as a stand alone article on this topic. May I?
Again, while I am not in full agreement on your take of Scriptural interpretation on this issue, I deeply appreciate what you have contributed.
Peace,
Jamie (Comment this)
i know that seems over-simplified, but i''ve come to that simplification through a journey of much complexity...
i''m not gay. i don''t think homosexuality is a sin. through my study of the scriptures, i''ve come to believe that''s it''s not, just as strongly and intelligently as those of you who believe it is. We read and understand the scriptures differently, and i don''t know that any conversation will ever resolve that.
i wonder how we learn to live together with that difference... that''s the real challenge to the church... (Comment this)
I don''t believe this issue is treated, by Christians, as a priority sin any more than any other major sin, including abortion and outright murder. All sin is great and we all fall short in different areas of our lives, but there are major sins that without repentance are considered “death sins”… if not physical death, certainly spiritual death. In just one biblical example, God’s Word specifically says that homosexuality was the reason for “Utterly Destroying Sodom and Gomorrah”. We can’t ignore or even whitewash what God Himself says is, not just a sin but, an “Abomination”.
I think in order to understand why homosexuals believe their behavior is "normal" we first have to look at how sin is initially recognized by man when we have immoral thoughts, because “thought” is where the whole sin process starts.
All Christians know and understand that we are inherently sinful creatures because of the blood of Adam. So it will always be easier for all men to sin than to abstain from sin. But if we have given over our lives to Christ, then we immediately recognize the "sin thought" the second it is cast into our mind. This happens because the Holy Spirit is there and pricks our heart to remind that sin is contrary to God''s desire for us.
Without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which all Christians receive through the grace of salvation, the decision of how to react when faced with right and wrong becomes our OWN decision and not a decision we first take to God. The fact that man is of a sinful nature and it is easier to sin than to resist or persevere against sin, then the usual outcome for those without salvation is to give in to the sin. Without the Holy Spirit we have great difficulty deciding rightly.
There is an old saying that goes "Give the devil an inch and he''ll take a mile". What that saying doesn''t tell you is that he won''t take the mile all at once. He''ll take it a fraction of an inch at a time so you won''t notice until you are completely ensnared by that sin. I truly believe that this is exactly how Satan uses the homosexuality sin against the very people who believe that it is normal behavior... by gradually destroying the person’s guilt of that particular sin and gradually blinding them to it.
For if we are being totally honest with ourselves, each time we do something that we know is wrong it gets easier and easier until there is no guilt or remorse to stop us. Once we have been desensitized to that point it is much easier to surrender to whatever that sin is (Satan’s mile… an inch at a time). Eventually it becomes a normal feeling.
I don’t pretend to know what goes on inside the mind of a homosexual but I do understand that homosexuality is not normal behavior, and that it results from giving in to homosexual thoughts that Satan casts into the minds of men. I also believe that there is an internal battle with each thought thereafter and it gets easier to surrender each time. There are many homosexuals today who still struggle with this guilt of surrendering but feel powerless and continue to give in to this sin. There are also many who believe themselves to be “normal”, because the sin has taken such control of their conscience that they are literally blinded and no longer recognize it as sin, but as normal behavior.
This same process is Satan’s greatest tool to blind us to sin in all areas of our lives, not just homosexuality. It can be applied to every issue we face that requires our recognizing right and wrong. He is a master at deceiving us all.
There is only one hope to make the correct choices in overcoming sin and that hope is in accepting Jesus Christ into our hearts and lives. Jesus is able to change things in us that we simply don’t have the strength or will to do. If we ask Him to cleanse the filth from our minds, hearts and even our bodies so that we can live a life that is pleasing to Him, He will do it. Sometimes He changes us immediately and sometimes it is a gradual change, but if we rely on His strength and not our own, He will give us the power to always recognize sin for what it is and to face it triumphantly!
I don’t hate the sinner, because I am one, and I will be until the return of my Lord and Savior. I love all to the best of my ability and I hope that I have not offended anyone with my words. I only hope to shed some light for those who may be struggling with this particular sin. Someone may read these words and understand something about themselves they haven’t understood before. I honestly pray for homosexuals because I know that it is a fleshly ensnarement of Satan’s doing. I also believe that Christ can save anyone, anytime from any sin, including homosexuality.
Praise His Holy Name!
(Comment this)
I am with a smile in shock right now because how easy it is to be misunderstood with text. Oh and I apologize for posting as an anonymous.
Jamie the main theme of your response(below)I absolutely agree with:
"It is arguable that, despite this, the temporal consequences are not the same. You wouldn''''t execute a kid for pinch his sister, nor would you put a child molester in the corner for a time out- but that wasn''''t my point either.
My point was that homosexuality is NOT treated as any other sin by Christians. It is treated as, by far, one of the worse sins in the Evangelical community, for reasons I have stated previously. Additionally, I think there are aspects of Evangelicalism that actual contribute to the problem (ie. continued sexism and even subtle mysogyny in our theology and culture)."
Jamie I posted this which is showing our agreeance of the issue, and also shows that I''m trying to show how God judges sin equally.
"And while I understand that domestic violence seems to be a more deliberate/anger based sin that doesn''''t mean hate should be directed in any direction more than the other(let alone hate to be directed at all)."
All that I was trying to say is that evangelicals as a whole do "pick on" certain sins. But just because they do pick on certain sins does not mean that we need to deminish the sin factor. My sinful thoughts I have everyday have lead me straight to hell except for The Grace.
If you don''t understand how I am saying then please remember this from this conversation. I do agree Evangalical Christians have picked on certain sins too much and not lived The Love enough.
The problem I have with most emergents thoughts I hear is that all they ever wanna do is talk about how moderns have got it wrong("hating fags"). All I can think is "I know we have gotten it wrong". We are trying to change but nobody is helping us change. I know conversation like this is good, but at what point will the work of loving all people happen. Besides with the argument of "people are to mean to gays", I could begin to say the same thing about emergents towards evangelicals. haha
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Randy (Comment this)